Covenant sci-fi amalgam

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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-24 02:19

Alrighty... erh... "Crossover Moderator." X-x I take it it means , "Don't do anything to get you bamfed, tied up, and shanghied to a dark room with Mai/Ace and a knife Moderator."

Anyways X-x so...

I'm guessing you want to depower the 'covies' of kurge either IC through a blitzkrieg through that gate thingy and back by destroying their ability to produce DEMs "for the greater good'' before their internal politics wreak havoc on them all and civil war gets going so when ICE gets there there's only a few worlds left.

Like when the mongols took byzantine/constantinople and found only a few small villages or something inside it's massive walls. Instead of attrition, it's just the cause of WAR.

Or OOC- by noting their tech isn't much on par with ours and they're really just way too "snobbish'' in thinking they're better by our results in the takeover of the one ship left in this galaxy. >.> kinda was going that route anyways...

So to make it clear; defanging/powering the covies is number one either IC or OOC on the compromise table.

But could I ask for two things from both sides?

1. What do both sides desire/demand ? Ace, and Kurge, this means you two :P.
2. What would a separate 'story outline' be allowed so it doesn't get all crazy.

My personal opinion. I personally want this as a footnote, or a side story, not a main event and if it goes as far as Kurge's covies go in ICE- to have them so broken and just a 'remnant' of their former glory by that time, if allowable to Mai, that gives all of ICE a means of developing on its own for the next 2-4 CM's worth of time.

That should be ample enough time to get the ball rolling^ Icewise before Kurge needs to even be considered by Mai for anything.

At the very least, I'm just glad that I got the idea of a compromise on the table. I just want to get the specifics of it all in one easy reference.

Might as well get a form going too to keep this all nice and neat.

Code: Select all


CO Project: Name of project
Link to details: ____ (-not necessarily needed here I think this has been out in the open and I know where to find out the info.)

I. LIMITS OF TECHNOLOGY and BALANCE of Proposal.
Ia.  1) ease of interaction. 2) size and scope. 3) tech level. (hashed out here but I'd like an honest restatement of the positions of each side with a compromise in mind that the devil is in the details >.> and we don't need more devils cropping up :( )
II. Admin Limitations and concerns/demands (ace/mai/blitz/) for *me* to watch for during thread developments.
III. Current honest opinion of total proposal of compromise. ( I want to put out fires before they start here, not have any ill will.)
IV. Player arbitration Order if they're any concerns in this thread. 
PM: Project Creator(Kurge here), If dispute on something, PM: Jericho Winters Next, if dispute after that: PM spyker, then mai, then Ace.
After that, just a brief bulleted outline of the story objectives so it doesn't 'balloon' out to something that would worry Ace/Mai.

Code: Select all


A.Story outline: any form here.

B. Anything here admins do *not want to see* twists/turnwise so I know what I'm supposed to be watching for. I will be especially be scrutinizing towards anything that might make the player base 'unsettled' or feeling like they got sucker punched IC, as that leads to OOC tensions as well.
As for the racial abilities- I've said I'm abstaining from it. But it would be nice to get that hammered out too.

And... that's basically it from my end that I'll need for clarification purposes. So.
Thanks for both your times.
~MM
Aka Jericho
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-24 05:05

Ace when you get a chance, add anything that I miss.

Name of project: Covenant (Specifically Eldorrin)
Link to details: Covenant Races & Capabilities

I. LIMITS OF TECHNOLOGY and BALANCE of Proposal.
Ia.
1) The SW-side supergate will be in NIF hands and operational. The Eldorrin-controlled supergate will be disabled for a long time/indefinitely at Ace's digression due to "damages"
2) Size of Covenant as present can fit in a 2x2 Sector square, as outlined in the IRM NIF Map, minimizing space of a galaxy even occupied
3) Technology level will be 'addressed' as a course of a major political event. Other causes may be applied if feasible and good for the NIF story

II. Admin Limitations and concerns/demands (ace/mai/blitz/) for *me* to apply for in threads or in the writeup.
N/A

III. Current honest opinion of total proposal of compromise. ( I want to put out fires before they start here, not have any ill will.)

The compromise that has been proposed is fair and good. The limitations that are stated are that DEMs are valuable and rare in number. ZPRs are equivalent to a hypermatter reactor and have some specific disadvantages/limitations involved. They are not included in the agreement on ZPM-like devices. Transporters outlined in the writeup linked, which Jericho knows about, are not able to pass through shields, range is based on power supplied and absolutely may not be used to beam warheads into enemy ships.

Shields are shields. The only abnormal shield is the bouncer type that I used in Covenant Rising. The downside of it, is unlike the Xythan Force Shields (SW Canon, Mai doesn't like at all) these shields do wear down 'normally', at a reduced rate. Till the point that the shields fail, the bouncing characteristics hold. All other shields are the same in IC working as SW shields.

Weapons are spread between railgun like, plasma, solid-light and couple others that are for way way down the road. The mass-effect weapons are to act like the railguns on a keldabe battleship. As a plot note, these weapon type will be disappearing. Plasma are plasma and don't need further comment, I believe. Solid-light (SL) are my own invention and have no crossover equivalent. SL weapons are workable at any range but suffer a penalty due to accuracy of the weapon verses the accuracy of the sensors. In other words, heavy jamming will reduce the efficiency of the weapons as the range of fire is increased.

Missiles are mostly kinetic-kill type of munitions and do not carry as much damage capability as a proton torp or concussion missile. The missiles would be very effective against fighters due to weaker frames, capital ships and subcaps would be less affected by them. Plasma torpedoes are guided (electromagnetically) pulses of plasma that are useable only at short ranges. Guided-hybrid-matter-energy-drones (GHMED) aka drone projectiles have less explosive punch but are faster than proton torpedoes. Have an advantage due to their hybrid nature against shielding and hulls.

IV. Player arbitration Order if they're any concerns in this thread.

If there are concerns about something in a thread, ascending order of contact is Kurge, Jericho, Spyker, Mai and then Ace. The concern moves up the ladder if and only if there is a need for a third party or higher authority involvement.

PM: Kurge, If dispute on something, PM: Jericho Winters Next, if dispute after that: PM Spyker Katarn, then Mai, then Kane (aka Ace)

I think that about covers everything that was discussed. If there are any concerns that pop up, then PM me first. If needed the discussion may be made open or semi-open as needed.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-24 09:35

Jericho Winters wrote:Alrighty... erh... "Crossover Moderator." X-x I take it it means , "Don't do anything to get you bamfed, tied up, and shanghied to a dark room with Mai/Ace and a knife Moderator."
That is an excellent job description. Except there would be a spoon.
TyrAnazazi wrote:Name of project: Covenant (Specifically Eldorrin)
Link to details: Covenant Races & Capabilities

I. LIMITS OF TECHNOLOGY and BALANCE of Proposal.
Ia.
1) The SW-side supergate will be in NIF hands and operational. The Eldorrin-controlled supergate will be disabled for a long time/indefinitely at Ace's digression due to "damages"
2) Size of Covenant as present can fit in a 2x2 Sector square, as outlined in the IRM NIF Map, minimizing space of a galaxy even occupied
3) Technology level will be 'addressed' as a course of a major political event. Other causes may be applied if feasible and good for the NIF story

II. Admin Limitations and concerns/demands (ace/mai/blitz/) for *me* to apply for in threads or in the writeup.
N/A
I accept the proposal as outlined.

I will address a few details, however.

1) First, Xythan Force Shields are at best comparable to X-1 Viper Automadon Molecular Shielding. Vipers weren't defeated by energy weapons, but the JK-13 security droid was. At most one can stretch it to say that the JK-13 has a comparable tolerance to the Vipers given that the latter are much larger tank droids. I see no indication that these would be stronger than standard deflector shields on say, a droideka (a JK-13 won against a destroyer, but this was not due to their shields). The only novelty is that they reflect energy attacks back at the attacker, similar to the Vipers which channel that energy to their weapons before returning it, and in that they have no noted particle shields. Which is a serious drawback against any kind of projectile or missile attack. It is reasonable to assume that they can be scaled up to starship size, but with this limitation I wouldn't use them aside from special requirements. I'll look into the details.

2) Solid light don't work like projectiles. The proper name is 'soliton', which is a packet of photons which behaves like a consistent group of particles with charge (with imaginary mass but not real mass). Reasonably comparable with how a turbolaser bolt behaves, but not like a bullet.

3) With DEMs having a cost 'x100', 0.01 is the rate of which you can use them compared to regular ZPR reactors.

You are still free to use them if you wish. But things like these is precisely why we have an IDOMIR screening process.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-24 18:57

I accept the proposal as outlined.

I will address a few details, however.
Kane wrote: 1) First, Xythan Force Shields are at best comparable to X-1 Viper Automadon Molecular Shielding. Vipers weren't defeated by energy weapons, but the JK-13 security droid was. At most one can stretch it to say that the JK-13 has a comparable tolerance to the Vipers given that the latter are much larger tank droids. I see no indication that these would be stronger than standard deflector shields on say, a droideka (a JK-13 won against a destroyer, but this was not due to their shields). The only novelty is that they reflect energy attacks back at the attacker, similar to the Vipers which channel that energy to their weapons before returning it, and in that they have no noted particle shields. Which is a serious drawback against any kind of projectile or missile attack. It is reasonable to assume that they can be scaled up to starship size, but with this limitation I wouldn't use them aside from special requirements. I'll look into the details.

2) Solid light don't work like projectiles. The proper name is 'soliton', which is a packet of photons which behaves like a consistent group of particles with charge (with imaginary mass but not real mass). Reasonably comparable with how a turbolaser bolt behaves, but not like a bullet.

3) With DEMs having a cost 'x100', 0.01 is the rate of which you can use them compared to regular ZPR reactors.

You are still free to use them if you wish. But things like these is precisely why we have an IDOMIR screening process.
Thank you Ace!

One quick note (as I forgot to mention in the pm, modifications* based on your reply)

1) The bouncer shield mentioned, designated Aegis Bouncer Reflector Shield System, is able to reflect both matter and energy. Alternatively it acts as a very powerful non-bouncing/reflecting shield. The downsides are as follows:

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at a *0.85 normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire

Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0 normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (ground installation only)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through (such as: slow moving fighters, spacetroopers, etc)
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-24 18:58

Kane wrote:I accept the proposal as outlined.

I will address a few details, however.


1) First, Xythan Force Shields are at best comparable to X-1 Viper Automadon Molecular Shielding. Vipers weren't defeated by energy weapons, but the JK-13 security droid was. At most one can stretch it to say that the JK-13 has a comparable tolerance to the Vipers given that the latter are much larger tank droids. I see no indication that these would be stronger than standard deflector shields on say, a droideka (a JK-13 won against a destroyer, but this was not due to their shields). The only novelty is that they reflect energy attacks back at the attacker, similar to the Vipers which channel that energy to their weapons before returning it, and in that they have no noted particle shields. Which is a serious drawback against any kind of projectile or missile attack. It is reasonable to assume that they can be scaled up to starship size, but with this limitation I wouldn't use them aside from special requirements. I'll look into the details.

2) Solid light don't work like projectiles. The proper name is 'soliton', which is a packet of photons which behaves like a consistent group of particles with charge (with imaginary mass but not real mass). Reasonably comparable with how a turbolaser bolt behaves, but not like a bullet.

3) With DEMs having a cost 'x100', 0.01 is the rate of which you can use them compared to regular ZPR reactors.

You are still free to use them if you wish. But things like these is precisely why we have an IDOMIR screening process.
Thank you Ace! I agree to the clarifications!

One quick note (as I forgot to mention in the pm, modifications* based on your reply)

1) The bouncer shield mentioned, designated Aegis Bouncer Reflector Shield System, is able to reflect both matter and energy. Alternatively it acts as a very powerful non-bouncing/reflecting shield. The downsides are as follows:

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at a *0.85 normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire

Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0 normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (ground installation only)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through and get under the shield if projected instead of ablative/dermal (such as: slow moving fighters, spacetroopers, etc)
"Fukaba fuke shana wa sunda zo ki no kaze" -Death Poem, Haiku - "Blow if you will, Fall wind...the flowers, have all faded"

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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-24 19:50

TyrAnazazi wrote:1) The bouncer shield mentioned, designated Aegis Bouncer Reflector Shield System, is able to reflect both matter and energy. Alternatively it acts as a very powerful non-bouncing/reflecting shield. The downsides are as follows:

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at a *0.85 normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire

Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0 normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (ground installation only)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through and get under the shield if projected instead of ablative/dermal (such as: slow moving fighters, spacetroopers, etc)
Unacceptable. Your 'Aegis-mode' is comparable to a standard deflector shield in every detail. Meanwhile you also add the vastly superior 'bouncer mode' with no functional drawback whatsoever.

Oh, and for the rest of you. I've studied the book and can confirm my initial assessment to be correct.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-24 19:56

Kane wrote:
TyrAnazazi wrote:1) The bouncer shield mentioned, designated Aegis Bouncer Reflector Shield System, is able to reflect both matter and energy. Alternatively it acts as a very powerful non-bouncing/reflecting shield. The downsides are as follows:

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at a *0.85 normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire

Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0 normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (ground installation only)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through and get under the shield if projected instead of ablative/dermal (such as: slow moving fighters, spacetroopers, etc)
Unacceptable. Your 'Aegis-mode' is comparable to a standard deflector shield in every detail. Meanwhile you also add the vastly superior 'bouncer mode' with no functional drawback whatsoever.

Oh, and for the rest of you. I've studied the book and can confirm my initial assessment to be correct.
What if the drawback is a limited time duration as with the Mon Cal's Overshield ability?

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at a *0.85 normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire
Max Duration: 5 minutes

Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0 normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (ground installation only)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through and get under the shield if projected instead of ablative/dermal (such as: slow moving fighters, spacetroopers, etc)
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-24 20:35

TyrAnazazi wrote:What if the drawback is a limited time duration as with the Mon Cal's Overshield ability?
What, you think that's a drawback? Well, that certainly explains why you've listed a number of 'cons' which simply aren't. Here's a hint; an ability that you can use is never a drawback unless it has negative effects.

I also think you don't realize just how good that 'bouncer shield' you're suggesting is. We're talking an almost ten times improvement when you consider all the effects.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-24 20:55

okay, negative effects...

Bouncer-Mode Pros:
Deflect Matter & Energy attacks
Polarized (can be fired out from not into)
Wear at 0.90x normal rate

Bouncer-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain mode under organized/concentrated fire
Only the Shield and Engines are working (except life support, given)
Weapons are disabled
Micro-jump capability disabled


Aegis-Mode Pros:
Very powerful shield rating for size
Polarized
Wear at 1.0x normal rate
Quick re-initiate if sufficient power is available (cannot install a backup shield system, period)

Aegis-Mode Cons:
Only covers a half-spheroid/ellipsoid area, leaves flanks vulnerable
Need at least 2 systems to fully-encase a ship
Large power requirements to sustain under organized/concentrated fire

Mutual Cons:
Slow moving objects that won't damage the ship can pass through (such as: slow moving fighters, missiles, spacetroopers, etc)
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-24 20:57

Friend Tyr Anazazi, limitations are not drawbacks. Weapons disabled isn't a drawback because your bouncer shield will do the same job. The rest are merely limits. I mean, microjumps disabled? How is that a drawback when you can just turn it off and jump away?

For a 1000% per cent improvement I'm more looking at a disadvantage the size of *spontanous self destruction*. You know equivalent exchange, yes? I would recommend a *massive* reduction in capability *and* an equivalent drawback.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-25 00:25

Kane wrote:Friend Tyr Anazazi, limitations are not drawbacks. Weapons disabled isn't a drawback because your bouncer shield will do the same job. The rest are merely limits. I mean, microjumps disabled? How is that a drawback when you can just turn it off and jump away?

For a 1000% per cent improvement I'm more looking at a disadvantage the size of *spontanous self destruction*. You know equivalent exchange, yes? I would recommend a *massive* reduction in capability *and* an equivalent drawback.
Buddy Ace,

Yes, the shield would sorta do the same job. However, the vast majority of the incoming fire won't even go back towards the enemy ships. It would deflect away at oblique angles. That is why I put it as a disadvantage. You are getting very good defensive power for essentially negligible offensive power; as the curved surface of the shield will be more prone to deflect shots around not back.

Microjumps are kinda a big compenent as I verified, explained, earlier in Covenant fleet tactics. The lose of that would essentially turn the tables back to the attacker be it the NIF, NR, ICE etc.

Okay...I understand what you are saying Ace. I am just not entirely sure what exactly you have in mind. Cause, honestly, I am a little stumped at the moment of what would be good. Well, preferably destroying one's ship wouldn't be beneficial. As a question, what if I leave it as a ground-installation or type shield instead of a space borne one. That would seem to be more disadvantageous to me. You are talking shield with a 5 km radius (ground).

EDIT:
I think that I just thought of something. I know I said reflecting both energy and matter weaponry. Now, what if it acts like a Gungan Personal Shield, having an essentially unlimited resistance to energy weapons. Yet has two weaknesses. Namely, that it is less efficient against projectile. As in you gain all that strength against energy weapons yet lose an equivalent level of resilience to projectile weapons. Add to/or instead of that, the shield would have a need to discharge vast amounts of energy periodically or the shield will no longer reflect anything and just soak it up until the generator does an emergency shutdown or fries. Where this energy is the energy that is absorbed by the shield and not deflected away.

Therefore, as an attacker, you just need to pummel it fast enough or with enough firepower that the shield's absorption and ejection can't keep up. Thus, you have a critical failure of the shield. Oh! also that discharge cannot be automatic which will increase the chances of a critical failure.

Thoughts?
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-25 01:09

TyrAnazazi wrote:Buddy Ace,

Yes, the shield would sorta do the same job. However, the vast majority of the incoming fire won't even go back towards the enemy ships. It would deflect away at oblique angles. That is why I put it as a disadvantage. You are getting very good defensive power for essentially negligible offensive power; as the curved surface of the shield will be more prone to deflect shots around not back.
Assuming you even have any oblique angles. Deflector shields can be angled, and X-1 Viper molecular shielding isn't reliant on angles for energy conversion. Even if you are unable to change your shields, the rate is around 33%, and only if you're being fired at from every direction. But that's not true, since the most effective way to bring down a shield is to concentrate fire, allowing you to optimize your shields toward the concentrated threat. The effective rate is more like 75%.
TyrAnazazi wrote:Microjumps are kinda a big compenent as I verified, explained, earlier in Covenant fleet tactics. The lose of that would essentially turn the tables back to the attacker be it the NIF, NR, ICE etc.
Microjumps are irrelevant, you can't jump past a blocking fleet. Plus you can simply turn off the bouncer and jump.
TyrAnazazi wrote:Okay...I understand what you are saying Ace. I am just not entirely sure what exactly you have in mind. Cause, honestly, I am a little stumped at the moment of what would be good. Well, preferably destroying one's ship wouldn't be beneficial. As a question, what if I leave it as a ground-installation or type shield instead of a space borne one. That would seem to be more disadvantageous to me. You are talking shield with a 5 km radius (ground).
It's still massively overpowered, no matter where you use it. Do keep in mind as well that the NIF would eventually make use of it; not that I'd allow it at present.
TyrAnazazi wrote:I think that I just thought of something. I know I said reflecting both energy and matter weaponry. Now, what if it acts like a Gungan Personal Shield, having an essentially unlimited resistance to energy weapons. Yet has two weaknesses. Namely, that it is less efficient against projectile. As in you gain all that strength against energy weapons yet lose an equivalent level of resilience to projectile weapons. Add to/or instead of that, the shield would have a need to discharge vast amounts of energy periodically or the shield will no longer reflect anything and just soak it up until the generator does an emergency shutdown or fries. Where this energy is the energy that is absorbed by the shield and not deflected away.

Therefore, as an attacker, you just need to pummel it fast enough or with enough firepower that the shield's absorption and ejection can't keep up. Thus, you have a critical failure of the shield. Oh! also that discharge cannot be automatic which will increase the chances of a critical failure.

Thoughts?
First, Gungan shields are by no means unlimited in any respect. They're equivalent to standard deflector shields.

Secondly, not good enough.

Deflector:
Energy absorption: 1.0
Kinetic absorption: 1.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.1
Shield life: 1.0

Xythan:
Energy absorption: 1.0
Kinetic absorption: 0.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.9
Shield life: 1.0

Bouncer (prosposition):
Energy absorption: >1.0
Kinetic absorption: <1.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.33-0.75
Shield life: 1.15

That's just for comparison. Any one of these factors are way above reasonable. Just the suggested rate of 0.85 wear alone is massive improvement over standard shields. Just imagine what people in IDOMIR would say if they were told they could get their hands on a shield that improves ship durability by 115%.

In case it wasn't clear already, a Xythan shield is on an acceptable level.

I have used up a lot of time here already. I have the slim hope that once certain bases are established, I won't need to poke in it further. But I have serious doubts at this point.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-25 02:33

Kane wrote:Deflector:
Energy absorption: 1.0
Kinetic absorption: 1.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.1
Shield life: 1.0

Xythan:
Energy absorption: 1.0
Kinetic absorption: 0.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.9
Shield life: 1.0

Bouncer (proposition):
Energy absorption: >1.0
Kinetic absorption: <1.0
Energy return to sender: ~0.33-0.75
Shield life: 1.15

That's just for comparison. Any one of these factors are way above reasonable. Just the suggested rate of 0.85 wear alone is massive improvement over standard shields. Just imagine what people in IDOMIR would say if they were told they could get their hands on a shield that improves ship durability by 115%.

In case it wasn't clear already, a Xythan shield is on an acceptable level.

I have used up a lot of time here already. I have the slim hope that once certain bases are established, I won't need to poke in it further. But I have serious doubts at this point.
Ace, that would be you and me both. Cause, while we were doing this whole discussion nothing happened in any of the other threads I post in. Since, as Fini, Drav, Jericho and I noticed and commented on in chat, we (including Tycho) make up for about 90% of the posts in the last month. ;)

I am not entirely sure how you did that math, and my brain is fried math-wise due to thermodynamics homework. So, what if we did this?

Bouncer (proposition Revised #1):
Energy absorption: ~0.5
Kinetic absorption: ~0.5
Energy return to sender: ~0.5
Shield life: ~1.0?

Or

Bouncer (proposition Revised #2):
Energy absorption: ~0.25
Kinetic absorption: ~0.25
Energy return to sender: ~0.75
Shield life: ~1.0?

My question is what equal values for Kinetic and Energy absorption need to be to have a return rate of ~0.75-0.9 and have a 1.0 shield life? Cause that is what I am really going for.

If that is not a possibility, I will take a Xythan Force Shield equivalent. Which just means I have to have kinetic shielding in the hull or something to compensate, which will jack up the power requirements massively. So, overall I might as well then just use a very powerful standard shield such as the original Aegis, that has no rebounding capability.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-25 02:43

Either of those will work.
TyrAnazazi wrote:My question is what equal values for Kinetic and Energy absorption need to be to have a return rate of ~0.75-0.9 and have a 1.0 shield life?
I already posted that example.

I will now return to trying to do something for the rest of my overly neglected members.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-25 03:31

The shields as pursuant to the idea of use for 'covie' foot soldiers are henceforth, i.m.o 'unacceptable to all parties as a violation of tech rulings' at a ship based level for ENTIRE ship coverage.

Case in point- they're not being used for an entire ship. Or Shipwise at all, unless I know that it's not going to cause tension in any players involved in the thread, and I think reasonably Ace or mai will note my concerns here are valid.
Jericho Winters wrote: I will be especially be scrutinizing towards anything that might make the player base 'unsettled' or feeling like they got sucker punched IC, as that leads to OOC tensions as well.
Having it stretch across an entire hull is far too overpowered, AND in the specific area where it counts the most - THE RP KNOWLEDGE of the Player Base- it is way too far skewed for many to play out IC without a detailed and thorough explanation first which, probably would put off people from rping with the proposed experiment. Your not just trying to deal with the idea of what Ace would find acceptable but also what can be logically and quickly understood by the player group.

Z.P.M like devices stretches this tenant a bit. But at least many people know what they're sorta like due to their elements in the scifi genre.

If they were to be used I'd only say the 'bouncer' shield type on a foot soldier level to my understanding ONLY would be akin to a riot shield in RP purposes or an extendable 'phrick-like ' metallic structure that only gives some physical benefits and 'resistance' to high energy attacks and a small amount of energy deflection back or 'rebounding' at a lower rate.

This is the only facet of covie tech we'd see them in. Otherwise, for the sake of the player's base understanding, I'd have to ask they be out the door Kurge: Entirely.

This should mean : On ship level- standard shield types of Deflector and Particle apply. Even if they're above powered then the size of the ship might allow due to a ZPR.

Because it's not just an aptitude of how that tech applies, but also to the gearing of how players would be able to understand and play with it that is the primary concern. Even if there was a 'return to sender shield' for small arms laser fire, the shields as revised would probably only be effective against starfighter based weapons anyways.

As such, they're pointless to have right now in this experiment.

However, for the players as a Compromise with respect to your vision of what the covies should be I have to be fair to put the below forwards:

For anything regarding the sheerest possibility of the above use FOR a ship based platform, It would be far easier to say that such a shields were not 'full spectrum' (by that I mean covering the entire hull)and more developed into a MIST sort of platform where the smaller shields would have to be projected beyond the normal shields to intercept and reflect incoming enemy fire.

This is in my mind the only ^ way present SW tech would let it work, in a small scale fashion. As such it would be a 'dual mode' MIST system. A system that is far Easier for the players to understand as its already not one hundred percent reliable. And capable of being overwhelmed or shot around.

This, as I said, is the only fair possibility that in my opinion the player base would have a reasonable understanding of the 'tech involved' as it mainly would only be a threat towards starfighters, and bombers.

If I had logged on sooner then this to prevent such conflicts I would have said "no way'' straight off the bat and shunted you towards something that wouldn't be so volatile towards the player base itself.

Ace- just shoot me a pm on any thing in regard to any concerns you have further on the tech stuff please. And a ruling on the above tech compromise^.

As of right now, if the covies are near Standard tech, And the only way in my mind I see this type of shield RP wise could be deployed ONLY on a type of upgraded MIST system. Thus Precluding, full coverage on anything larger then a fighter craft with a beast of power requirements.

If the power requirements of setting up a layered energy field are far greater to deflect energy back- logically you wouldn't be able to use them on a ships full hull.

But this is just my understanding of where this 'small' deviation from sw level tech could play out in. But for the player base- I'd have to seriously caution their use across an entire hulls width as players would go 'wth'. If that can't work out, then it would be best to get rid of them altogether.
Last edited by Jericho Winters on 2011-04-25 04:09, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-25 03:51

Jericho Winters wrote:As of right now, if the covies are near future Standard tech
That is a misunderstanding. If ANY Covie tech was overall better, we would eventually make use of it. That's unacceptable contamination. As a consequence, it is not.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Jericho Winters » 2011-04-25 03:54

Slip of the keyboard, ace, been editing as we speak. :(

I still think any 'bouncer' shield type should be on a MIST/type platform in order for players to understand and overcome it in a fair RP manner IF it is used on ship scales at all :(. Otherwise, it's far too volatile for creating situations in the future where someone will think , "Foul."

I think Kurge, if you seriously took a step back and considered the ramifications here in full, you'd be inclined to remove it. Don't you agree?

Otherwise, I'd have to ask for a ruling on Ace whether this is too much of a tinder stack for the future rp situations that this will arise in this thread for this tech's removal.

The goal,for me here, is to have fun, and to prevent conflict later. Not, to do something that is the equivalent of adding fuel to the fire.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-25 07:58

Jericho wrote:I still think any 'bouncer' shield type should be on a MIST/type platform in order for players to understand and overcome it in a fair RP manner IF it is used on ship scales at all :(. Otherwise, it's far too volatile for creating situations in the future where someone will think , "Foul."

I think Kurge, if you seriously took a step back and considered the ramifications here in full, you'd be inclined to remove it. Don't you agree?

Otherwise, I'd have to ask for a ruling on Ace whether this is too much of a tinder stack for the future rp situations that this will arise in this thread for this tech's removal.

The goal,for me here, is to have fun, and to prevent conflict later. Not, to do something that is the equivalent of adding fuel to the fire.
Okay, maybe I wasn't exactly clear here. The ship borne system would be part of a MIST/MISS equivalent system. Not a shield system for a whole ship. However, for that to work as the NIF does, it would make sense to reflect the energy or torpedoes back or somewhere else. As you said yourself Ace, a Xythan Force Shield like device would be fine. That said, wouldn't it be just as easy for someone else that has read this, Saint for example, to go "YAY! I think I see a way to improve on the MISS/MIST system we already use!" Now take that a step up to just as reasonable where you trade some of the specialty for handling both types of attacks.

That is where that was supposed to be headed.

As to personal side, it would be just I did in Covenant Rising. Now, keep in mind there is only one of those and that was in Tyr's possession and won't be getting in NIF hands for at least a century IC. In that instance, it works like a modern RL riot shield. Excellent protection in the direction of facing. None in the area outside of that small forward angle. Furthermore, if you read the whole thread, you will have noticed I had in a format similar to the ancient shields in real life. Meaning while using that you lose some of your ability to attack or do damage with traditional weapons. The difference you see in that thread is he (IC) had on a powered exoskeleton armor, similar to DT, that helped offset that by using suit-mounted armaments. Even still, you have a limited scope of coverage and really too costly, IC, to deploy in any large number.

Just as a reminder, you have said yourself so many times that I can't even count that technology in the Legacy Era showed not even 1% improvement overall. Which in some ways shows the shortsightedness of George Lucas or whomever wrote that. In a century with plenty of incentives, to have essentially no improvement in every area is laughable. Or do I need to refer you to the amount of progress in material sciences or nano-sciences in the last 5 years, since I have been in college? Yes, SW is way more advanced than RL yet it is still absurd to cling to such a minor amount of progress.

As to the technology getting back to the NIF, that is not likely in any regard. As I have nicely mentioned to my other friends here, that is not a plausibility. For starters, techwise, their systems feature complicated bio-locking mechanisms. On top of that, self-destruct capabilities if bypasses are attempted or done. So, yea you can get it then it will blow the h*ll out of the lab. I know that as has been mentioned, everything on this board and elsewhere is built on trust. So, as hard as it may be you should really trust me on this. I may not be good at keeping things SW-ish enough but I am really d**n good at keeping my stuff under control. So, let me make it really easy for you and everyone else, unless I let you know otherwise, assume that whatever it is will blow up in your face or meltdown or something destructive. If there isn't anything left, there can't be any 'contamination' right? Of course IC, you could comb through with a small molecular or subatomic comb but that wouldn't do you any good.

In addition, Jericho is here to act as a third-person to keep an eye on things. Do you really think that he and I can screw up royally? Is that how much trust you have in our ability to do what was agreed upon? At the moment, I am kinda feeling a bit like I got stabbed in the back...

It is late and to say the least that is not as diplomatic as I would've liked. But that last couple of posts required a faster rather than a slower response. So, if you have any comments it will be after 1300 or so till I can read them, on Monday. Hope you have/had a great evening!
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by Kane » 2011-04-25 13:02

TyrAnazazi wrote:As you said yourself Ace, a Xythan Force Shield like device would be fine. That said, wouldn't it be just as easy for someone else that has read this, Saint for example, to go "YAY! I think I see a way to improve on the MISS/MIST system we already use!" Now take that a step up to just as reasonable where you trade some of the specialty for handling both types of attacks.
As I've pointed out two times earlier, the Xythan provides no protection against kinetic attacks. Which makes it utterly useless as a missile defense. No, you can't combine it with a particle shield. That's the whole point.
TyrAnazazi wrote:Just as a reminder, you have said yourself so many times that I can't even count that technology in the Legacy Era showed not even 1% improvement overall. Which in some ways shows the shortsightedness of George Lucas or whomever wrote that. In a century with plenty of incentives, to have essentially no improvement in every area is laughable. Or do I need to refer you to the amount of progress in material sciences or nano-sciences in the last 5 years, since I have been in college? Yes, SW is way more advanced than RL yet it is still absurd to cling to such a minor amount of progress.
How about the progress in nanotechnology the 100,000 years before the last five?

The progress of propelled aircraft since the 1960s?

The progress of gasoline engines since the same time?

The progress of rockets since the 1970s?

The progress of jet engines since the same time?

Progress is only fast when you discover a new concept. They eventually reach plateau and can only get incremental improvements (yes, this also applies to computers). Nearly everything existing in Star Wars was already discovered milennia ago. It's perfectly reasonable that they shouldn't improve much. We do see rapid improvements, but they are limited to the few times something new is discovered. The most clear example is the hypermatter reactor which increased starship power many times over. They came to be near the end of the Old Republic. All ships before that are vastly weaker. Such reactors still haven't been implemented everywhere.
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Re: Covenant sci-fi amalgam

Post by TyrAnazazi » 2011-04-25 16:07

Kane wrote:As I've pointed out two times earlier, the Xythan provides no protection against kinetic attacks. Which makes it utterly useless as a missile defense. No, you can't combine it with a particle shield. That's the whole point.
I thought that you said that either of the revised proposals was fine. Or did I miss that?

[quote="Kane"How about the progress in nanotechnology the 100,000 years before the last five?

The progress of propelled aircraft since the 1960s?

The progress of gasoline engines since the same time?

The progress of rockets since the 1970s?

The progress of jet engines since the same time?

Progress is only fast when you discover a new concept. They eventually reach plateau and can only get incremental improvements (yes, this also applies to computers). Nearly everything existing in Star Wars was already discovered milennia ago. It's perfectly reasonable that they shouldn't improve much. We do see rapid improvements, but they are limited to the few times something new is discovered. The most clear example is the hypermatter reactor which increased starship power many times over. They came to be near the end of the Old Republic. All ships before that are vastly weaker. Such reactors still haven't been implemented everywhere.[/quote]

Do you really want me to answer that? Probably not... All I will say is that it is not like there was much incentive to improve those areas. It worked just fine and there was no reason, outside of some overly hippy people, that thought otherwise. Even presently, in the USA, it is not that profitable to pursue alternatives. As it would be too costly at present or would require billions if not trillions of dollars to convert the infrastructure. In case you forgot, we and I can guarantee you that none on else would have that kind of money lying around. I admit that there is a very small chance that I am wrong on that. But, if I am that would be surprising.

I also noticed that you didn't bother answering the questions I asked nor a response to the answer to your contamination comment.
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