Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fleets

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Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fleets

Postby Abraxes Rancor » 2014-03-23 01:14

At the present time I was asking Jacen a question in chat and we came up with a bit of a conundrum.

About MTC's vs. Field secured container Vessels and their present makeup in the galaxy.

Now, I don't know if people realize that KDY uses Field S C V's quite liberally well into the Legacy era to transport : Space stations and other large scale products.

Now, Jacen was under the impression that I was talking about a potentially 20km long ship, that we might not have. or "Probably don't have."

But the canon remnant had over 50 of them for their replentishment fleets. As addressed in the same books with the descriptor for the black ice.

He then tried to convince me that their existence was in the wrong era of time. I disputed : No it's not- it's rebellion/ empire era, which we are just shy of about 20 years after ABY, and that in canon FSCV's were around till the legacy era.

His answer was that we have MTCs for that kind of thing now.

That's kind of ludicrous to me due to the canon elements that show beyond a doubt a single MTC is incapable of transporting such large quantities as full blown *pre-built* yards *through long hyperspace journeys. It's debatable if you add more, how effective they'd be in short hyperspace trips- due to the facts of thrawn dragging with his ISD's to bring in those cloaked asteroids.

MTC's are made for internal optimized transports via their modular design. To switch out that modular design per mission specific needs- it's logical to assume they'd need some yard time, or to visit a replentishment fleet where we would have vessels capable of helping them switch things out, like crane vessels and mobile repair ships.

For the largest scale transport projects- that was what FSCV's are for. *though they're *slow* to accelerate/decelerate. Canon wise- FSCV's were around till legacy period.

No MTC has the capacity to drag along a *pre-built*3200m golan by itself through a long distance hyperspace jump- it would destabilize them too quickly and the drag would not be able to be computed to a safe margin. That's where FSCV's came in as the way the in universe systems explained things. When systems built or obtained repair yards/space stations, the process was like how they obtained ships. They bought them from manufacturers and set them up with their own labor forces. Most shipyards in SW are bought from manufacturers and 'unpacked' after arrival, not built from scratch. There's no doubt in my mind we'd still use a whole lot of FSCV's for these functions- especially since they're the in universe solution for yard transport that was given.

So there's needs to be a clarification on what our replentishment fleets are made up of. Especially since canon shows FSCV's were around to help with the Altors job to refuel fleets.

In my mind-

MTC's would be the low end of the scale in the makeup of replentishment fleets and used to transport goods from those replentishment fleets to the current battlefleets. Or retrieve them from sector depots to take the current supplies into dangerous situations.

I guess with this idea I shall admit one point-, I 'm thinking FSCV's wouldn't normally be put into a battle situation due to their slow accelerations but if you're bringing in golans- or making shipyards they're present up till legacy era.

THEN it might be the only way to transport in more golans to cover the only holes we'd be making in the Axum system's defenses. Otherwise- MTC's would only be able to transport smaller scale defenses into the system. Or if we would be sure risking larger vessels to bring in the heaviest emplacements we could to try to hold the most valuable areas.

Since the largest of FSCV's are used to transport golans and KDY space yards that are then unpacked. My question that originally started this debate is- what is the shortest time with droid assisted labor a golan sized defensive station could be unpacked? Or would the risk merit some other ways to have a fully completed one transported through hyperspace, aka - via space tugs to get them there.
==============
In summary:(EDITED LIST:
For any replentishment fleet serving the numerous sector fleets they consist of:
Lucrehulk transports
CIS ReSupply ships
MTC's
Various other transports(corvette size like Ace's example)(DR-90)?


As for replentishment fleets existence- I just assume we deal with them like we deal with sector defense fleets- they're there but just not noted in our IRM.

Synopsis of questions:
What other vessel types/tenders would be present in our replentishment fleets?

What is the minimum time with droid assistance could a space station like a Golan be unpacked in?

If dragging a Golan or a bulk majority of system defense platforms through hyperspace into a contested system, would it be best to use space tugs or go back to trying to bring an FSCV into the deep space near the contested system's oort cloud for MTC's, space tugs, or other vessels to drag them into position from there?

I'm actually leaning towards the above as the probable scenario for Anaxes if we're bringing any extra defenses to help attain space superiority in the quickest amount of time.

A little clarification would be helpful for all here.
Last edited by Abraxes Rancor on 2014-03-25 03:23, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby jacenwesiri » 2014-03-24 19:46

Black ice was clearly set in the rebellion era. We are in the New Republic Era.

Going by canon, the Remnant would have only had a handful of ISDs by the point whereby we merged, so reasonably, could these vessels have survived the NR fleets when the Remnant couldn't have protected them? When the Remnant is strapped for resources, would they really have maintained 50 of these, when they clearly wouldn't have needed them?

Oh yeah, why would we normally need these things to haul Golans about? Couldn't we just break them into more manageable pieces for transport, and put the pieces together at the intended site or close enough that a tug could drag it to the right place?

I'll ask again, which book claimed that they had 50 as or 18 ABY? Before you said Black Ice, bit IC that took place at the earliest of about 15 years before the present.

Next question, since we already have the more efficient MTCs,why would we spend probably quadrillions of credits maintaining these behemoths when we have the cheaper and more efficient MTCs, especially since that with the exception of the current C1, and even so with the above, that has no real advantages over a MTC? And even if C1 was a sufficient justification, why would we have 50 for it?

Also, why would they use that rather than Altor? Remember, we don't want redundant classes if we can help it.

As I told you then, just because the Empire had stuff in the rebellion era doesn't mean it has it now. If that is a justification, I seem to remember a full sized Death Star, complete with Vader and Tarkin. Jericho, I want it now, where is it?
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Kane » 2014-03-24 21:49

FSCVs are cheap long-distance heavy transports. They're merchant vessels utterly devoid of any military capability per se, and we don't have any military need for them since we've focused on making our ships less dependent on resupplies rather than going the NR route which is the opposite with their Hajen-class fleet tenders. This is done by two routes, increased ship automation and the addition of modular recycling plants. Jacen has proposed that we add dedicated production capacity to these, especially for carriers.

They're also from an older era, the only dedicated military supply ship of note from Dark Empire on was the MTC. FSCVs may still see civilian use, but they're pretty dang poor ships with the only redeeming factor being a lot of volume hauled on the cheap. There were also non-dedicated ships running supply, such as DR90-class corvettes (small, fast and with decent transport capacity). Supertransports are civilian ships.

FSCVs are not the only large ships running supply. There's for example the CIS resupply ship with similar capacity as the FSCV (well... some versions of it), and one may also consider the Lucrehulk-class. Not the converted battleship, the transport. The Altor-class is mostly dedicated to refuelling heavy ships, which we have little need of. If anything, it's the smaller ships used for patrolling that needs frequent refuelling.

We haven't made use of dedicated repair ships other than the MTC, which has that capability (we could use more of them though, and upgrading existing ones to Mk IIs). Really damaged ships which are still holding together get moved by other ships, sometimes hyperspace tugs, to the yards. Even more damaged ships are recycled, either on the spot or moved in pieces to the yards.

I don't really see the point in moving Golans into a contested system. It's a rather risky operation if you ask me, compared to our standard procedure of first securing space and then moving in defences. To make that easier, they eventually made a Golan VIII with its own hyperdrive so it doesn't even need to be tugged. But that was like, a century from now. Sure we could do it since it's standard tech, but there's little point just for that purpose.

I once considered the need for FSCVs, but that's years ago, and found none. Fleets have grown larger since, but they've also grown more independent. I don't like the fact that we have whole fleets with no MTCs, rectify this in upcoming requests please.
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Abraxes Rancor » 2014-03-25 00:27

jacenwesiri wrote:Black ice was clearly set in the rebellion era. We are in the New Republic Era.

Going by canon, the Remnant would have only had a handful of ISDs by the point whereby we merged, so reasonably, could these vessels have survived the NR fleets when the Remnant couldn't have protected them? When the Remnant is strapped for resources, would they really have maintained 50 of these, when they clearly wouldn't have needed them?

Oh yeah, why would we normally need these things to haul Golans about? Couldn't we just break them into more manageable pieces for transport, and put the pieces together at the intended site or close enough that a tug could drag it to the right place?


I think you missed my point, yes it was possible to pack them into more manageable pieces. But not for bulk transport of multiple stations in one go.

Jacen wrote:I'll ask again, which book claimed that they had 50 as or 18 ABY? Before you said Black Ice, bit IC that took place at the earliest of about 15 years before the present.


Aside from the answers you were already given (which is obvious you don't like) The FSCV's were also mentioned in the technical readouts for the KDY version of the FSCV's. One of the technical books, with a blurb for how long in use KDY and other shipyard producers used them, however the information is readily available on wookiepedia- feel free to look it up.


Jacen wrote:Next question, since we already have the more efficient MTCs,why would we spend probably quadrillions of credits maintaining these behemoths when we have the cheaper and more efficient MTCs, especially since that with the exception of the current C1, and even so with the above, that has no real advantages over a MTC? And even if C1 was a sufficient justification, why would we have 50 for it?

Also, why would they use that rather than Altor? Remember, we don't want redundant classes if we can help it.


You seem to misunderstand something, FSCV's weren't just for liquid fuel. KDY FSCV's were used to transport vast amounts of processed material at a time. Specifically- a Full executor class star destroyer's mass. Not just fuel.

Add the major shipyards, Jaemus shipyards, the IR shipyards and all their production together you'd see there'd be at least a fifty of these ships in the remnant just for the bulk transport of raw material. They were also used to transport large amounts of mass to secret projects.

In this case- they're not really redundant at all. Just slow****.

As for your questions on whether or not they survived the rebellion hunting them: I admit they're heavily sought after targets. But with most of them being in KDY's hands with Pallaeon's deals with them, I don't think the Republic really went after them *after* they became the new republic.

They had other means of trying to infringe upon KDY's deals with the Remnants and Warlords.

Also- a side note to their use to supply secret projects: Since we don't ever know where our Sentinel's are- we'd be pretty beholden under security concerns to haul more with less ships to them.

Apparently you missed my intents here. If you think I'm trying to upset anyone, then I'm sorry, that's not the intent at all. I just want to know what elements would be pulled in here. I can work with some of the other input Ace has given to mod my ideas.

As for the number fifty- I based that as an estimate on the yard sizes the old remnant had which still were under contract to KDY, Rendilli, etc. As the Jaemus shipyards were considered the size of sluis van, my estimate is they must have received close to five times the metric tonnage of an ESD each year to continually supply the enforcers, both to the corporate sector that bought them and the various warlords having them produced. Since they were in the pentastar region of space, which really didn't fall till the end days of the remnant. I assumed they kept normal operations.

Then you add in the bulk moved for Bastion's armament, and the fortress worlds that were made by Pallaeon and you roughly get the tonnage moved to be ~ 30 x the mass of an ESD. Then add in all the civilian yards, factories, that palleon created with daala in the remnant, (when ISD numbers surged) and you can see why I said a safe estimate was approximately ~ 50. Though that may be a little high now that I think about it that Drone barge's could have done a lot of that shifting of material. So I'd say on a better estimate- at least 10-20.

At the top of the Rebellion Era, I can note that there was probably one supplying goods/fuel to every sector defense fleets deep space docks. Would the New Republic targeted them? Yes, definitely, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But there still plenty left in our backwaters for use. If we really don't care to upkeep them or are slowly replacing them for better things, then by all means- put droid crews on them, and use them if necessary in high risk situations.

Jacen wrote:As I told you then, just because the Empire had stuff in the rebellion era doesn't mean it has it now. If that is a justification, I seem to remember a full sized Death Star, complete with Vader and Tarkin. Jericho, I want it now, where is it?


I've already given you the justifications, and the caveat here is your making a generalized statement to make your point. I'm making one *based in canon facts* that FSCV's were around for a long time due to KDY's and other usage of them based in the technical details.

I think however Ace clarified it as best since there's still no doubt they're around:
Ace wrote:FSCVs are cheap long-distance heavy transports. They're merchant vessels utterly devoid of any military capability per se, and we don't have any military need for them since we've focused on making our ships less dependent on resupplies rather than going the NR route which is the opposite with their Hajen-class fleet tenders. This is done by two routes, increased ship automation and the addition of modular recycling plants. Jacen has proposed that we add dedicated production capacity to these, especially for carriers.


I do like the carrier production idea, but it's not going to fly for bringing in the high end needs for mass transport. The dedicated modular recycling plants only seem to be in our battlefleets now, sector commands have older vessel ships, same as fourth's old problems. It's a question to me of what has been fazed out so far.

Ace wrote:They're also from an older era, the only dedicated military supply ship of note from Dark Empire on was the MTC. FSCVs may still see civilian use, but they're pretty dang poor ships with the only redeeming factor being a lot of volume hauled on the cheap. There were also non-dedicated ships running supply, such as DR90-class corvettes (small, fast and with decent transport capacity). Supertransports are civilian ships.


Alright, so constructive move in the right direction- supertransports are out of the line up, but on the MTC- it still has a lot of partitions between it's modular storage areas.

As for civilian use- KDY used them to transport packed up planetary emplacements as well. Hopefully just by taking a glance your CIS ship would be able to have the space to do so.

Now, sector fleets- would the MTC's have had enough time to displace the old Corellian Star Hauler drone barge variants that would move smaller completed stations into place?

Ace wrote:FSCVs are not the only large ships running supply. There's for example the CIS resupply ship with similar capacity as the FSCV (well... some versions of it), and one may also consider the Lucrehulk-class. Not the converted battleship, the transport. The Altor-class is mostly dedicated to refuelling heavy ships, which we have little need of. If anything, it's the smaller ships used for patrolling that needs frequent refuelling.


The altor was a the largest refueling tanker I could find, but good constructive movement here.
So, from what your saying:

The IR or our sector command defense elements would have moved to more large transports like the Lukrehulk original, and the CIS resupply ship.

This is constructive- a lucrehulk has enough space to have two half completed parts of a Golan III if they were used to transport, or many more defensive satellite emplacements.

I like these vessels and this contribution- it's constructive and fits the idea much better then FSCV's would.

Ace wrote:We haven't made use of dedicated repair ships other than the MTC, which has that capability (we could use more of them though, and upgrading existing ones to Mk IIs)


More constructive thoughts here, though I see a discrepancy. Let me clarify since I don't think people got this point from the comments I had on the MTC. My point in saying that sector command elements of replentishment fleets would have the older military tenders for dedicated repair ships/ or crane ships in order to not waste the battle modularity of MTC's in general.

They're too valuable and you wouldn't waste 1 out of a line of 10 as a repair ship to switch out the other nine's modules. Then lose a module somewhere else to alter the first one your using.

It's not about damage that older (or more dedicated) ships would be utilized. It would be to ensure the swiftest efficiency and use of the MTC's.

Don't get me wrong, I like*** the MTC's but for a long time fourth was without a lot of supply lines, meaning in their defensive duties they had to interact with sector command replentishment ships for a while. Especially when way back they had older ships.

I know that we're moving from that scenario- especially with the Fleet Standardization program.

But the scenario that existed then still hold true for the moment for our sector command elements.

It's changing, but it hasn't changed completely. I'd give till C1M36 for us to wholly be on the platform you describe.

Ace wrote:I don't really see the point in moving Golans into a contested system. It's a rather risky operation if you ask me, compared to our standard procedure of first securing space and then moving in defences. To make that easier, they eventually made a Golan VIII with its own hyperdrive so it doesn't even need to be tugged. But that was like, a century from now. Sure we could do it since it's standard tech, but there's little point just for that purpose.


True, but if I'm bringing in tugs to help things out later with our damaged ships in case we have to retreat, if they are coming in there they might as well cart in something for their trouble. Especially since one of the two scenario excuses Draaygo and I came up with for any elements of fourth being there was for guarding fleet tenders drawn from sector commands (due to the current fleets not having enough escorts for them) then for the obvious reason I'd put something in the hyperspace tugs' jaws.

Moreover, they can help move captured enemy emplacements to where they're needed most to hold off any reprisal *until* we could bring in more fortifications. I'm not saying we're deviating from the standard doctrine- my goals for c1 are to use viable elements , drawn from civilian, or military backstock that we don't care if we lose to ensure we have the time for heavier reinforcement later.

Read this use of clawcraft as: "return of the honey badger. Ace ;)"

There might be a few songs for the Emperor to hear as well. >.>

Ace wrote:I once considered the need for FSCVs, but that's years ago, and found none. Fleets have grown larger since, but they've also grown more independent. I don't like the fact that we have whole fleets with no MTCs, rectify this in upcoming requests please"


For fourth, Draaygo and I already discussed for C1M35 to rebuild fourth's supply lines. With... MTC II's.

The question is what would we have in the mothballed sector command fleets that's useful.

Since they're noticeably behind.

The idea for even dragging in emplacements of any kind came from the notice in the CM for using "Other resources as available from Sector Commands, Fleet Commands, and IMEXCO."

*now I'm going to go edit to go with Ace's adjustments on what the sector command replentishment lists would have and hope there's some more input from others that's constructive.

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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby jacenwesiri » 2014-03-25 02:46

Abraxes Rancor wrote:As for your questions on whether or not they survived the rebellion hunting them: I admit they're heavily sought after targets. But with most of them being in KDY's hands with Pallaeon's deals with them, I don't think the Republic really went after them *after* they became the new republic.


You're kidding, right?
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Abraxes Rancor » 2014-03-25 02:51

For the most part: Yes, Sarcasm.

But then again KDY had their own support elements to protect them during their use and delivery.

However, the republic generally did start losing more and more proverbial teeth the more it became bloated with member worlds and many were hesitant at times in between the lulls and emergencies to want to strike out at manufacturers based operations.

They had politics try to raise sanctions against them though for backyard deals. But the Jaemus shipyards were in use by KDY , Rendilli, etc for a long , long time. Think of it as 'sub-letting' to the manufacturers as a political smokescreen of circumstances. The NR wouldn't want to press the issue of interfering with travel routes between company owned yards to their own owned shipyards, they'd be accused of piracy on the senate floor, though they may attack the actual locations to destroy/capture ships in black ops operations or during other military campaigns.

Short version: The politics of the matter sucked for the military options.

Any wholly owned by the Remnant itself were fair game of course.

Think of the NIF's current political corollary with KDY's drive yards- not all of them are open to the NIF for political reasons.
Last edited by Abraxes Rancor on 2014-03-25 03:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby jacenwesiri » 2014-03-25 03:07

Abraxes Rancor wrote:For the most part: Yes, Sarcasm.

But then again KDY had their own support elements to protect them during their use and delivery.


Again, you're kidding right?

KDY is not going to go delivering Golans for us while officially being part of the NR. If KDY would join the NIF, that might work, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, they're at least officially aligned with the NR right now, or at best, they're neutral. Neutral factions don't go ferrying heavy defensive platforms for belligerents.

As I see it, this entire discussion is really about how to negate part of the contention within C1. Right now, the only suggestions I'm seeing from you about how this would work seem rather cheesy, even if they are valid. Of course, that's not to say that they're valid, and I'm not perceiving your suggestions about how it would work in that light.
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Abraxes Rancor » 2014-03-25 03:12

Honestly, you're confusing the issue *again*.

Jacen wrote:As I see it, this entire discussion is really about how to negate part of the contention within C1. Right now, the only suggestions I'm seeing from you about how this would work seem rather cheesy, even if they are valid. Of course, that's not to say that they're valid, and I'm not perceiving your suggestions about how it would work in that light.


But it doesn't matter. You're reading into this what you want to read.

I was discussing the canon elements. I think you need to take back and read a little more carefully Jacen. I completely said already I wouldn't be using FSCV's as Ace offered better , more realistic for the fleet composition choices to haul long distance emplacements in. Not that that's all I'm doing in c1- I'm here getting *details* right- whatever form of details those turn out to be.

I'm just going to take this with a grain of salt as you being frustrated, apologize if there was anything that frustrated you on my end and wait for other replies.

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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Kane » 2014-03-25 09:37

There seems to be three discussions going on here rather than one.

1) The discussion of canonical SW naval logistics and the implications thereof.

2) The discussion of NIF naval logistics, current situation and how it could be developed.

3) The discussion of how the above applies to C1M34.

I would like to keep these separate, because right now they're getting pretty jumbled. Jacen raises good points, but let's take anything directly related to C1M34 to the C&P thread for it. Point 2 really belongs in Operations, which would leave this thread to point 1. But we're already past that, so I'm going to move this thread.

As for point 2. All fleets could stand to increase logistic/support ships. We have plentiful production capacity that's largely unused, so how about we make use of some of it. In other words, build more MTC2s.

I've checked, but we don't have any larger ships in the naval reserve, which leaves heavy transport capacity to civilian contractors also in the future. Which is fine because we still don't have any use of heavy lifting for military purposes. Abraxes (Jericho) has raised the question of this lack of capacity, but what I still don't see is any need to get one. I could agree that we could use old medium transports and supertransports to fill logistical support in outlaying fleets at least for the time being, but frankly, we don't have any anymore. By now they're repurposed or recycled, and it seems pointless to buy some when we can just build proper support ships.

Let's keep in mind that sector fleets and local resources aren't available for the federal navy to use. The government can overrule this, but aren't going to do so willy-nilly.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Jericho Winters » 2014-03-25 17:10

I agree there's three different discussions going on here.

Ace wrote:I've checked, but we don't have any larger ships in the naval reserve, which leaves heavy transport capacity to civilian contractors also in the future. Which is fine because we still don't have any use of heavy lifting for military purposes. Abraxes (Jericho) has raised the question of this lack of capacity, but what I still don't see is any need to get one. I could agree that we could use old medium transports and supertransports to fill logistical support in outlaying fleets at least for the time being, but frankly, we don't have any anymore. By now they're repurposed or recycled, and it seems pointless to buy some when we can just build proper support ships.


I agree that we need to build more support ships. As for larger ships in the reserve: the TFB's were supposed to be put back into second fleet's sources or kept in fourth as troop landers. If I remember correctly when I asked about them last month in chat Vik said somehow they were 'lost' somehow in translation when things got moved around.

Not recycled.

If this oversight could be fixed- even a TFB would work with the droids being used. As far as heavy transport is concerned for fourth being in c1- it's pretty much the excuse for their presence, not what draaygo and I actually want to be the primarily the bulk of what they're doing.(I think that's kind of obvious with my post) We have an interesting plot going that I want to run with, but I've been wracking my brain stressing out trying to figure out the details on the back story fluff and stuff these past two weeks.

If necessary, I'll edit some things, but I'm still going for the plot that we(draaygo and I) discussed.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Kane » 2014-03-25 18:06

As I recall, those TFBs have been lost for an age or two. Viktor may have an idea of what we should remake, otherwise I'll see to it.

As for your C1M34 post, I'll leave that discussion for that thread and just note that you may be crossing Jacen's plans.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Jericho Winters » 2014-03-25 18:26

Well, if that's the case, he should just say so in the C n P thread. That's a certainly different topic then saying something 'doesn't work this way in SW when it's in canon.'

As far as heavy transport for military operations go:

The idea of a military heavy transport: Operations wise.

It's a matter of pre-positioning resources when things are down to minutes or hours. When we take and try to hold a system or two in a sector we tend to forget that there's normally fifty planets in a sector and fleets may not be able to remain on station due to enemy action. Nor would there be much time to wait for civilian shipping (ie- freelancers) to get there to drop something off.

Especially with the risks of them getting cut off by enemy action.

As far as taking any core worlds go in future operations let's be honest: It's like sticking your hand into the meat grinder. Or like picket's charge at gettysburg, with *everything* your army has being risked (if you were the southern army) only the northern army would have the ability to pull in an additional army behind you to cut you off.

Even if you can get civilian contractors (freelancers) somewhere in SW in less then four hours to set up defenses- there's no guarantee your going to actually have the goods arrive. Due to enemy action, or in the case of millions of credits of military hardware being delivered- deviations, theft, and civilians not wanting to run the risk.

If you can't trust freelancers to actually get the goods there, you fall back on sector resources if you're federal fleets don't have that capacity.

Then there's the politics of it:

Trying to convince the local populace to turn heel and salute your flag in any span of twenty four hours is a difficult thing.

For one: You need to prove that you can alleviate their worries about safety if your fleets are in danger of being called away if there's a counterattack somewhere else.

Transportable ready defenses that are able to be moved in quickly go a ways to help alleviate that risk and concerns of the populace you're trying to pacify.

I'm not arguing that the NIF or any SWars fleet we have should go crazy on a heavy transport capacity. I will maintain and stick to my guns though that at least we should maintain a *limited* capacity to do so in our federal fleets- at least one fleet should have a supply line of four or five heavier *fast* Large scale transports to do so to protect the ability of the NIF to have the capacity.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Kane » 2014-03-25 19:44

Jericho Winters wrote:As far as heavy transport for military operations go:

The idea of a military heavy transport: Operations wise.

It's a matter of pre-positioning resources when things are down to minutes or hours. When we take and try to hold a system or two in a sector we tend to forget that there's normally fifty planets in a sector and fleets may not be able to remain on station due to enemy action. Nor would there be much time to wait for civilian shipping (ie- freelancers) to get there to drop something off.

Especially with the risks of them getting cut off by enemy action.


There's sometimes thousands of planets in a sector, but most of them aren't particularly important. The whole purpose of securing space in a system is to allow us to control it... we're not deep raiding here. It's not a complicated subject; first you take the strategic systems, then you move on to the rest.

Jericho Winters wrote:As far as taking any core worlds go in future operations let's be honest: It's like sticking your hand into the meat grinder. Or like picket's charge at gettysburg, with *everything* your army has being risked (if you were the southern army) only the northern army would have the ability to pull in an additional army behind you to cut you off.

Even if you can get civilian contractors (freelancers) somewhere in SW in less then four hours to set up defenses- there's no guarantee your going to actually have the goods arrive. Due to enemy action, or in the case of millions of credits of military hardware being delivered- deviations, theft, and civilians not wanting to run the risk.

If you can't trust freelancers to actually get the goods there, you fall back on sector resources if you're federal fleets don't have that capacity.


Anaxes is literally next door to NIF controlled space. Why would there be a time frame of less than four hours? You seem to suggest that we'd need to smuggle in stuff.

Jericho Winters wrote:Then there's the politics of it:

Trying to convince the local populace to turn heel and salute your flag in any span of twenty four hours is a difficult thing.


Whoever said anything about 24 hours? I sure didn't.

Jericho Winters wrote:For one: You need to prove that you can alleviate their worries about safety if your fleets are in danger of being called away if there's a counterattack somewhere else.

Transportable ready defenses that are able to be moved in quickly go a ways to help alleviate that risk and concerns of the populace you're trying to pacify.

I'm not arguing that the NIF or any SWars fleet we have should go crazy on a heavy transport capacity. I will maintain and stick to my guns though that at least we should maintain a *limited* capacity to do so in our federal fleets- at least one fleet should have a supply line of four or five heavier *fast* Large scale transports to do so to protect the ability of the NIF to have the capacity.


To do what, exactly? Move in supplies into a system that we already control and have full access to? I mentioned this before, but I still don't have an answer to why we should need heavy transports in the navy.

I'm mostly guessing at your process of thinking here (it can be rather difficult to follow), but it seems to suggest something like that we'd need to move in static defences into a system that we just took control over within hours. That's not the case; a campaign mission is two months long, and any quick counterattack would already be defeated or successful long ago. Adding a few Golan stations within that time frame has a negligible effect at most, particularly as we have naval reserves if need be. Warships is what we use for quick deployments, and they're rather suited for this. It certainly doesn't hurt if we don't have to destroy all present defences since we can utilize them as soon as we have control, but this is a bonus.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Jericho Winters » 2014-03-26 00:10

Ace wrote:Anaxes is literally next door to NIF controlled space. Why would there be a time frame of less than four hours? You seem to suggest that we'd need to smuggle in stuff.


For ISIS yes, for the army machines that need to be setting up defenses- probably due to the fact most of the stuff you try to send down in the first waves and second waves to build those defenses are easy targets. I'm talking planetary Ion cannon big though not the small fortifications. Space- not so much. It would be a far better solution to manufacture spaceborne defenses. You already told me why we're not bringing in WD's though- politics. So it's back to space borne earlier solutions: Cart stuff in.

As for the four hours, that's based on what you've said our hyperdrives could get us to anywhere in that time. If ours can- so can theirs. So it's logical that their first reinforcements for any offensive operation would at least be brought in in the first four hour time line.

Ace wrote:Whoever said anything about 24 hours? I sure didn't.


Actually you did, I just paraphrased. In other discussions you said the most time of risk to take and hold something is the first 24 hours as within that time frame you usually have an organized response from the enemy.

Ace wrote: That's not the case; a campaign mission is two months long, and any quick counterattack would already be defeated or successful long ago. Adding a few Golan stations within that time frame has a negligible effect at most, particularly as we have naval reserves if need be. Warships is what we use for quick deployments, and they're rather suited for this. It certainly doesn't hurt if we don't have to destroy all present defences since we can utilize them as soon as we have control, but this is a bonus.


I'm sort of thinking that this is taking place at the seventh week and the sixth day type of thing due to the setup where there was doubt we'd be able to hold Anaxes, or even if we would have time to hold it. I'm not thinking just giant space borne defenses here. I'm thinking of the larger shield generator emplacements we'd take in to place in orbit of a planet to help protect seized/damaged assets we want to take being deployed simultaneously.

The one's with real time potential were what came to mind.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Shield_Station
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gravity_Well_Station

(Golans as the high end of what would be capable of being transported would just be icing on the cake- I admit their real time potential is not as much as the two above.)

A lot of our fleets don't have enough shield ships like the deflectors too. A 'drop and forget' would be an option. Yes we have ships that do the job, but they would normally be trying to stop/drag any reinforcements into contention as far as possible away from the the main areas we're specifically taking over at the same time. Also- we don't have enough ships in some fleets for the deflectors, etc. At least in my mind- there's some credit to the idea of simultaneous 'drop and forget' deployment, or slightly delayed deployment. The two stations above I mentioned with their dimension- I don't think they can be packed into a single MTC module.

A single ship securing the entire outer edge of a system with a ring of drop and forget gravity well generators- would be awesome.- and less risky when used in conjunction with our interdictors.

Taking some yards and already depleted their shields? Got more of our own ships dealing with enemy reinforcements- thus needing our deflectors elsewhere leaving them open to pesky starfighter assault.

Drop and forget some shield stations, let our fighters pick theirs apart while your capships go deal with the other threat.

Are we being pushed back away from a planet and still having a ground force on the ground?
No time to pull them out but need to reinforce their position until our own reinforcements arrive?
Drop and forget a shield generator station , designed for a theater shield. Or even potentially a full sized planetary shield customized for reentry with a drill module to get the geothermal power tap for it's energy done quickly. (Maybe just land a deflector for them for a theater shield, but do our deflectors even have repulsors to land?)

The idea of what would be able to carry them: Heavier transports.

Heavier transport capable of carrying both types= pretty good and useful.

"Quality is somewhat better then quantity, but quantity has it's own quality too."
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Kane » 2014-03-26 09:03

Jericho Winters wrote:As for the four hours, that's based on what you've said our hyperdrives could get us to anywhere in that time. If ours can- so can theirs. So it's logical that their first reinforcements for any offensive operation would at least be brought in in the first four hour time line.


So can ours. Fixed system defences are substitutes for warships, not replacements. Which is the whole key problem, I think. Instead of building transports, we could build more warships, and that would be a better option. Especially given that it would be a poor logistical choice to move in bases and defences while we still haven't secured the system.

Most system defences worth anything can't just be dumped in at the drop of a hat, but even if we started to develop rapid-deployable planetary guns for example, warships is still the better option for fast response. Long story short, you don't build fortifications until you have something to defend.

The big problem with your drop-and-forget approach comes around if we decide to make a withdrawal, either planned because it was a raid or necessary, because it became too expensive to stay/push on; we'd have to leave the gear behind. The dogged-in approach is symptomatic of defence-in-depth warfare, not mobility and maneuver warfare. If anything, the NR would adopt this strategy, not the NIF. We're playing to our strengths.
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Tavish McFini » 2014-03-30 22:17

jacenwesiri wrote:
Abraxes Rancor wrote:For the most part: Yes, Sarcasm.

But then again KDY had their own support elements to protect them during their use and delivery.


Again, you're kidding right?

KDY is not going to go delivering Golans for us while officially being part of the NR. If KDY would join the NIF, that might work, but that's neither here nor there. The point is, they're at least officially aligned with the NR right now, or at best, they're neutral. Neutral factions don't go ferrying heavy defensive platforms for belligerents.

As I see it, this entire discussion is really about how to negate part of the contention within C1. Right now, the only suggestions I'm seeing from you about how this would work seem rather cheesy, even if they are valid. Of course, that's not to say that they're valid, and I'm not perceiving your suggestions about how it would work in that light.


So, here's a question... It goes around the idea of IP. How is it that we're able to build Star Destroyers, like ASDs, which, if you look at the IRM, says they're designed/built by KDY? More importantly, what stops KDY from taking the design and not only giving it to the New Republic but also building a bunch for them as well? I'm aware things like the MCPS would exist on drawings only as "vendor supplied weapon to be inserted here, please provide wiring according to the attached cable schedule up to the marked terminal points" and what not, but yeah... why wouldn't the NR play to KDYs strength's and build Nemesis-class Star Destroyers because surely it would be a lot easier for the workers to build those over Mon Cal cruisers... or their Nebula-classes which the NR seem to be slow in churning out.

Also, sorry for going off topic, but I feel I had to ask the question.
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Re: Replentishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle fle

Postby Kane » 2014-03-30 23:52

Tavish McFini wrote:So, here's a question... It goes around the idea of IP. How is it that we're able to build Star Destroyers, like ASDs, which, if you look at the IRM, says they're designed/built by KDY? More importantly, what stops KDY from taking the design and not only giving it to the New Republic but also building a bunch for them as well?


Kuat Drive Yards is a multiplanetary corporation which exists on both sides in this war. They produce ships for us in the yards they own which are in NIF territory, but not in the yards they own which are in NR territory. We can also license build KDY ships in other yards. The NR is probably using them to build Victory IIIs or Cardan-class space stations or somesuch. KDY has a strong imperial bias, which is not much of a secret.

Tavish McFini wrote: I'm aware things like the MCPS would exist on drawings only as "vendor supplied weapon to be inserted here, please provide wiring according to the attached cable schedule up to the marked terminal points" and what not, but yeah... why wouldn't the NR play to KDYs strength's and build Nemesis-class Star Destroyers because surely it would be a lot easier for the workers to build those over Mon Cal cruisers... or their Nebula-classes which the NR seem to be slow in churning out.

Also, sorry for going off topic, but I feel I had to ask the question.


Long story short, we know that the NR has plans for ISDs and the like, but they're not building any because 1) they're not trusting KDY very far, and 2) they're associated with the Empire, which would make it a political faux pas. As for the first reason, can't really blame them, given that Viqi Shesh is elected senator for Kuat this year. On that note, we can probably deal with her on the side. The Nemesis-class differences are made up of our tech, not KDYs, so they can't build those. Possibly ESDs, should they want to, but they never did. They also have the Death Star plans ;)

Addendum: pretty much the same as what happened in canon: Reborn Palpatine produced KDY ships at Byss; Eclipse, Sovereign et cetera. After he bit it, the new management in Kuat put their support behind the NR and participated in the New Class program with damaged shipyards.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Jericho Winters » 2014-04-11 01:57

Ace wrote:Kuat Drive Yards is a multiplanetary corporation which exists on both sides in this war. They produce ships for us in the yards they own which are in NIF territory, but not in the yards they own which are in NR territory. We can also license build KDY ships in other yards. The NR is probably using them to build Victory IIIs or Cardan-class space stations or somesuch. KDY has a strong imperial bias, which is not much of a secret.

Long story short, we know that the NR has plans for ISDs and the like, but they're not building any because 1) they're not trusting KDY very far, and 2) they're associated with the Empire, which would make it a political faux pas. As for the first reason, can't really blame them, given that Viqi Shesh is elected senator for Kuat this year. On that note, we can probably deal with her on the side. The Nemesis-class differences are made up of our tech, not KDYs, so they can't build those. Possibly ESDs, should they want to, but they never did. They also have the Death Star plans ;)

Addendum: pretty much the same as what happened in canon: Reborn Palpatine produced KDY ships at Byss; Eclipse, Sovereign et cetera. After he bit it, the new management in Kuat put their support behind the NR and participated in the New Class program with damaged shipyards.


So let's say someone... "theoretically" had a PC that was a member of the Ten with tertiary blood ties to the Kuat family... what plot ideas would you suggest for that character's player for helping out the NIF with Kuat's current political situation?

Would they start manuevering for Kuat of Kuat?

Would they help get an in with Visquis?

Also another side note, while Kuat never made ESD's, didn't they make a lot of mandator III's? What's the difference in stats between them and mandator II's? All I've ever seen was 'several thousand meters larger. X-x

Would we ever build one?
Or mod one as one of these? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_repair_base
(I'll think this as a no since we have MTF's but... a fleet officer can
dream+
**builds one completely just for the Intimidator :P and hides it from ace***)

As for the death star plans and those other vessels >.> ... interesting.
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Kane » 2014-04-11 08:25

Jericho Winters wrote:So let's say someone... "theoretically" had a PC that was a member of the Ten with tertiary blood ties to the Kuat family... what plot ideas would you suggest for that character's player for helping out the NIF with Kuat's current political situation?

Would they start manuevering for Kuat of Kuat?

Would they help get an in with Visquis?


Since Kuat itself remains in NR territory, probably the most upheaval one can do is to pull a Russian Crimea.

Jericho Winters wrote:Also another side note, while Kuat never made ESD's, didn't they make a lot of mandator III's? What's the difference in stats between them and mandator II's? All I've ever seen was 'several thousand meters larger. X-x

Would we ever build one?


Since Mandator IIIs are pretty comparable to ESDs, we wouldn't build any since we already have ESD and an upgrade program for them.

Jericho Winters wrote:Or mod one as one of these? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_repair_base
(I'll think this as a no since we have MTF's but... a fleet officer can
dream+
**builds one completely just for the Intimidator :P and hides it from ace***)


There's basically three different ways to deal with fleet logistics.

1) Your ships are relatively dependant.
Advantage: Your ships will be able to pack more combat equipment into a smaller package and be cost-efficient.
Disadvantage: You depend on your transports and frequent resupply.

2) Your ships are relatively independent.
Advantage: Your ships don't require logistical support for normal operations.
Disadvantage: You have to give up space that could be used for more weapons, power, and shields.

3) Your ships are independent.
Advantage: Your ships don't require logistical support.
Disadvantage: same as 2 but more.

The New Republic uses the first option. The Galactic Empire, and the NIF, uses the second option. Your suggestion runs down to the third option. It doesn't matter whether we give up combat specs inside our ships or have dedicated logistic ships, in both cases we're giving something up to get something else.

It's not a bad idea. It's just also not a good one. ICE is a perfect example of where you'd want to have independence of logistical support, and so I sent a giant factory ship into deep space. You can see the possible advantages of having on-board factory modules right away - for example could our ships repair all battle damage by themselves. What's not as obvious is that we'd have to pay for that ability by having less combat capability than what we could have.

Ultimately, none of these strategic options are better than the other. Given a specific situation, one would prevail. But overall? No. So what this means is that if our shipping is significantly wrecked by NR commercial raiders, we'd be better off building more independent ships and vice versa. Taking the middle road is basically the cautious choice here, never perfect, never wrong.

When was the last time that we could have used a mobile repair ship and didn't have one available?
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Re: Replenishment Fleet makeups in 18-20 ABY vs. Battle flee

Postby Kane » 2014-05-04 13:28

It should be noted that I actually do many things that aren't obvious in the ways of for example a post. Research is one such thing.

I've considered the worth of having a repair shop on ships, especially aside from carriers, which have obvious use of it. Basically, the alternative is to store all common replacement parts, and requisition the unusual ones to be delivered by supply ship or dock. I've looked at various real life examples.

I'm thinking that with rapid prototyping, it's worthwhile to use some of the room used for storage for such a workshop. Note that this would bypass some of the previously mentioned problems by using existing space for a different purpose. If we can duplicate tools and items needed for supplies and repairs, we wouldn't need to store all that much in replacement parts, anyway. Also, with a molecular furnace handling recycling, much of the space now dedicated to 6 years storage can be freed up for a manufacturing plant. I think many crewmembers will be less than satisfied with the common grub being reduced to recycled autochef groceries, but it suffices and we can still keep around a bit of fresh food in storage for occasions or exchanged for food cupons.

There are some obvious advantages with not having to wait for rare parts before you can put stuff together, or getting lost in bureaucracy. Larger ships should even be able to build vehicles.
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